Wednesday 4 January 2012

d.67 - the countdown to boiler re-start

Here's an example of what I take to be d.67, which is the countdown referred to in the last post. In my vrDialog data, I think it must be the parameter called RemainingBurnerblocktime_DK, which is in red in the graph below.

The graph shows a transition (at about 17:00) from micro firing to short firing. Note that the micro firing period does not show all the detail of what happens on a timescale of less than about a minute, so it is missing many periods of boiler status S.4 (i.e. ignited) and many of the short-lived peaks in flow temperature.


This begins to answer some of my questions from the last post. In particular, note that d.67 starts to count down when the boiler goes to state S.7, not when it goes to state S.8. However, I have noticed that it only does so when it is going to go to S.8 next (unless it decides it can re-fire first, as in the micro firing region). Somehow it must already know when it goes to S.7 that it is going to go to S.8 (which it certainly does not always do). The only example in this particular graph is at about 18:44, when it goes to S.7 but not then to S.8 - it did not start the d.67 countdown when it went to S.7, so it must have known it was going to do something different next.

As for which row of the d.2 table my boiler is using (a 438 installed in March 2011), it seems to be as shown in the table - at least when there is a requested flow temperature. See e.g. the second peak in each of the saw tooths, at about 17:30 and 18:12. The target flow temperature is 43C. If we're supposed to round down to the nearest multiple of 5, we should be using the 40C row. My d.2 is the default max of 20min, so the table gives a blocking time of 13min, which is what we see on the graph.

However, I do not understand what is happening on the first peak of each of the saw tooths (i.e. at about 17:16 and 17:58). This is at the end of a period of firing, when the requested flow temperature drops to zero (although there's no need for it to do so, which is why this is short firing rather than normal cycling). In both cases d.67 goes to 19min. This may be entirely unrelated to d.2. It was at a time when my Pump Delay Time on the VRC430f was set to the default of 15min - if had been set to OFF, I'm sure I would have seen a continuous burn here, without any short firing. But why did d.67 go to 19min? Is it related to the 15min setting of Pump Delay Time? I don't know.

What is happening in the micro firing region? The boiler very rapidly tries refiring, despite the d.67 countdown having barely begun. This is presumably because (once the tiny spurt of heat from the few seconds of firing has dissipated) the flow temperature is back at 27C, which must be low enough for the boiler to think it can have another go. But when it does, it immediately exceeds the target flow temperature and cuts off. I'm therefore still not convinced that increasing d.2 will help at all with micro firing, but I shall certainly try when the weather warms up again and micro firing reappears.

Frustratingly my vrDialog data does not appear to include the parameter that corresponds to d.41 (i.e. return temperature), which would enable me to see what the difference is between d.40 and d.41, despite the boiler being capable of displaying d.41 on its screen. The only candidate appears to be ReturnTemperature_DK.Temperature, but it always returns a reading of -1.8 (indicating it is non-functional, which is presumably what is meant by the next parameter, ReturnTemperature_DK.SensorState, returning a value of "cutoff" - contrast e.g. BMU_FlowTempOrVF_1.SensorState, which returns a value of "Ok").

18 comments:

  1. At the first peak of each of the saw tooths (i.e. at about 17:16 and 17:58) when the requested flow temperature drops to zero...

    On the VRT392, your above sequence typically happens when there is no longer any demand from the room stat i.e. it has met the set temp.

    Could this be the case for your graph?

    BTW, what does the 'Combustion' graph (in vrDialog) look like when micro firing compared to short/normal operation?

    Did you log to a CSV file in vrDialog? If so, could you post a file with a few days worth of all data where it was micro firing and a normal day? (I'm just curious to see whats possible to produce with some analysis in excel)

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  2. On this occasion, the set temperature had been reached, although the "room temperature control" was set to off, i.e. allegedly the VRC430f was not paying any attention to the temperature of the room, instead relying only on the outside temperature and the heating curve - and, I suppose, the return temperature.

    But exactly the same short firing behaviour is seen when the room is well below target temperature. The graph is in fact from the same day as shown in the first graph on the page entitled "The problem", where you can see what the room temperature was - the programmed temperature was 19, rising to 19.5 at 5pm. Compare the pre-microfiring and post-microfiring periods. They look the same, despite the difference in room temperature.

    What do you mean by "Combustion" graph? Is that a graph produced by the vrDialog software itself? I use it only to log to CSV, and then do all analysis in Excel - I have barely explored the vrDialog software itself.

    I've put some CSV files into a folder that you will find at https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bxx9fdDTLL0bZTUxNzA3ODItMWRmYy00NTEyLTliZGQtMDNkNjdlYzJkM2Iw

    I've also put there an Excel file that makes it extremely easy to plot any parameter(s) that you want. It may not make perfect sense, since the comments in it were written for my benefit. But don't re-invent the wheel - ask me (by private email if you prefer) if it's not clear, since once you know how to work it, it takes no more than a few seconds to import a CSV file and create any plot you want. I suspect that it will only work in Excel 2007 and 2010, due to some of the features used.

    The days I have uploaded are:

    2011.11.23 (recorded in two parts, one starting at midnight and one at 08:22 in the morning) - short firing all day

    2011.11.24 (up until about 11am, when I stopped recording) - micro firing nearly throughout

    2011.12.03 (entire day) - continuous firing apart from three 'normal' cycles off. This - unlike the two days above - was after the change of Pump Delay Time to OFF, to stop short firing. This is the day shown in the section you prompted me to add called 'How it should look'.

    I don't actually have that many more informative days recorded at the moment, since soon after that I lent my cables to someone else. I should have them again in the next few days.

    I don't know anyone else who has played around with vrDialog data, so I'd be pleased if you find something else that's useful in there.

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  3. If I'm right, then microfiring is just the boiler repeatedly trying to restart when that isn't possible. My solution has been to avoid failed restarts by setting d2 very high, having a minimum of 45C, ensuring best possible flow through the boiler with a higher capacity pump and optimally set Automatic Bypass Valve and a delaying buffer tank to stop heated water getting back to the boiler before the "first minute" is up.

    I have spent a lot of time watching d40, d41 as the boiler fires and not the high level view you get with VrDialog. From this I have worked out what my flow is, what heat the boiler is putting in and how it responds when the return water rapidly heats up. I'm thinking that anyone troubled with these devices should spend at least some time doing the same.

    Are you saying that with a target of 43C, the boiler is trying to restart from 27C? If you have 12kw at startup, then that means you may not have quite the required minimum flow. Do you have an ABP fitted and adjusted? My installer didn't put one in and I added it afterwards. I think some installers just use
    gate valves which may not be the best.

    I got my 12kw by looking at the rise from d40 to d41 at maximum power and at minimum. From this I know the flow and from that the 12kw during start up. You have to set things up with your TRVs etc so that conditions are stable while you do it. It can be hard to determine the temperature rise under some conditions.

    From elementary heat physics (as far as I understand it) the equation is
    Flow (litres/min) = (14.15 x heat input (kw)) / temperature rise

    I suggested this in DIYnot at some point but never had any feedback as to if this was
    a. Done and dusted but not found useful
    b. Too scientific and mathematical
    c. Boring/other

    Off aways, I suggested to Vaillant that the whole timed approach to restarts is probably wrong and that it should work out or be told at what return temperature it should attempt to restart.

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  4. Mike,

    Yes, that is my understanding of micro firing - repeated restarts when not possible. To that there are two possible solutions - stop trying to restart repeatedly, or make it possible.

    I am not saying that with a target of 43C, the boiler is trying to restart from 27C. The graph shows that with a target of 42C or 43C, the boiler successfully starts from 29C. But from a flow of 29C, it fails to restart with a target of 40C or 41C. Whether those figures always hold true I cannot say, but my impression is that targets below about 43C are problematic for me.

    What is the derivation of your formula? I have not tried working it out from first principles, but the units on the two sides of the equation do not match, so there is something wrong with it. Perhaps there is a constant with appropriate units that is supposed to be understood? I do not understand it at present.

    Your advice to study d40 and d41 closely is no doubt good advice, and is something I intend to do. I did once try increasing all my pumps to max to see if increasing flow rate that way would make any difference, but it did not stop the micro firing that was occurring at that moment.

    Once I have my vrDialog cables back and time to investigate, I shall try experimenting with d2, but I hope you see why - on the strength of the graph shown here - it does not look likely to me that it will make any difference.

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  5. James,

    I'm so pleased to have someone question and hopefully verify this. The equation is developed from o-level physics facts. I have not been able to understand how to justify the units nor how to present this elegantly. I have proceeded by a naive notion of proportionality.


    1 watt = 1 joule/sec
    1 calorie = 4.24 joules

    from these
    1kw = 1000 / 4.24 cals/sec = 14.15 kcals/min

    1 cal raises 1gm water 1C or
    1 kcal raises 1 kgm water 1C

    1 litre of water weighs 1 kgm assuming constant density

    1kw raises 1 litre of water 14.15C in 1 minute Recast this in boiler terms

    1 kw boiler raises 1 litre/min flow 14.15C

    A k kw boiler raises f litres/min flow (14.15 x k / f)C

    Call the temperature rise t, then t = 14.15 x k / f

    From which f = 14.15 x k / t

    Ball-park sanity check with a 3 kw kettle boiled from room temp then the "flow"
    can be calculated f = 14.15 x 3 / (100 - 20) = .5 litres / min roughly

    So a normal kettle should boil a litre of water in 2+ minutes allowing for heat loss
    which is about right.

    I found a graph in a paper by Energy Systems Research Unit at Strathclyde university which showed condensing boiler efficiency versus return water temperature. This indicated that there is maybe 10% efficiency gain in going from a return water temp of 60 down to 30. At that level you have 98% efficiency, so the very slow cooldown that starts to be evident below 30C may mean that it is not worth the trouble to go much further. I spoke to the writer. He admitted that this graph was a sort of integration from various information from different boiler manufacturers. They don't publish their stuff and would only agree to this general idea going out.

    How many pumps do you have? I found that setting my Grundfos 15/50 up from speed 2 to 3 made lots more noise but not much more pumping. Upgrade to Grundfos 15/60 was much better.

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  6. Here's the formula from one of my threads on DIYNot which I used during my tests last year.

    Flow (l/min) = Power (kW) ÷ 4.1 (kJ/l/K) * 60 (s/min) ÷ ΔT (K)

    ΔT (K) = Power (kW) ÷ flow (l/min) ÷ 4.1 (kJ/l/K) × 60 (s/min)

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  7. UpgradeMe,

    Where did your formula come from? I missed your threads. Could you tell me the title?

    The excellent news is that there is close agreement (14.63 vs 14.15) so for our purposes either is good enough and I don't need to rethink the whole affair.

    I'm wanting to write to Vaillant about getting my boiler upgraded to use less power for less time at start up. After my formal complaint to them their final letter had "It is highly unlikely that the current specification for this boiler will be changed ... no plans to alter these specifications in the near future"

    So I now have grounds to reopen the case.

    I wonder if you can confirm from your own measurements that the startup power is related to d0 rather than just a fixed amount as with my boiler. I need to be confident of the facts or they will most likely respond with bs.

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  8. I am 100% sure that if i change d0 to it's default (highest) setting, the fan / burner noise is significantly higher during startup! or alternatively, I am 100% sure if I lower d.0 from 18 to 10, there is a significant reduction in noise during startup!

    My thread using the above formula is located below, discussion of the formula starts around page 3:-

    http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=266773&start=0

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    Replies
    1. Woah, that is a very scary thread. You certainly seem to be able to bring the trade out to play. You can get hints and ideas but in the end you have to work it out for yourself. Too many dogmatic rules of thumb! I noticed that a few other things seem to have changed. My pump overrun definitely is just as per d1 while on yours it keeps pumping while calling - that would be another big reason for me to get my boiler upgraded. I have designed and prototyped an intermittent pumping control to try to get round my necessary d1=40. It works fine but I daren't implement it for insurance reasons. Actually I suggested that the pump should always run while calling to Vaillant. I think they have stolen my ideas and not offered me the benefits.

      I'm going to read your thread at more leisure but pending that what do you think of my conclusion that for our purposes - ie having the boiler able to restart timely then we want to maximise flow through the boiler and minimise the temperature rise across it. I have the same ABV as you and I think it is set about 2 - lots goes through the ABV. That is difficult on my system cos of high power for a full minute but would not bite you with only 20 secs.

      On my system, if the pump isn't running at boiler start, then the boiler starts the pump 20 seconds before firing. The boiler then chokes on the hot water in the pipes before any cool stuff gets through from the rads.

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  9. For reference, the volumetric heat capacity of water changes at different temperatures as follows:

    volumetric heat capacities
    20°C 4.183
    25°C 4.181
    30°C 4.179
    35°C 4.178
    40°C 4.179
    45°C 4.181
    50°C 4.182
    55°C 4.183
    60°C 4.185
    AVG 4.181222222

    (I used 4.1 in the above formula)

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  10. I agree with your formulae, subject to some fussiness over units. The units for the specific heat capacity figure of 4.1 (or whatever nearby figure you pick - 4.2 would be a better approximation) in UpgradeME's formala should be kJ/lK, not kJ/l/K.
    Then the units and the formula work out just fine.

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  11. Gary wrote the following comment (which I deleted by pressing the wrong button, sorry):

    "I have had an interesting finding related to d67 and dare I say a bit of a breakthrough. In a nut shell once flow temp is reached my problem is that because of the high output on the restart it overshoots and gets into a bit of a loop. This is very annoying and I am sure is not economical. What I noticed is that the problem got worse as it got colder so the last week has highlighted the problem. When it is milder the d67 value of around 10-20 mins was normally (50%) long enough for the restart to be successful, but in the colder weather went all the way down to 1 min so took many restarts.

    I have so far looked at increasing min temp to try to get around this de-rating the boiler so it happens later and even played with the outside temp settings.

    But yesterday I had a though, could the d67 temp be determined by the target temp and not the outside temp so what I did was lower my curve to 1.2. Which an outside temp of 1c the target flow was 51c and when this was reached the d67 wait time was 15 mins. This is long enough for a successful restart and both last night and this morning the system has worked fine. I have a well-insulated modern house and although it took some time for the house to reach 21c it did get there. In some ways this is how I believed WC would work running at lower temperatures efficiently but for a longer time and not letting the house get to cold.

    It will be interesting to see what happens when it warms up, I have set minimum to 45c so that means I am getting about a 6c difference from a mild to a cold day, not much."

    My response is:

    I agree that the initial d.67 value is determined by the target flow temperature, not the outside temperature. The vertical axis on the table showing how to determine the initial d.67 value is the target flow temperature.

    Looking at the table, it makes sense (as you observe) that lowering the target flow temperature by lowering the heat curve results in a higher initial d.67 value. However, I am unsure why you are seeing lower initial d.67 values than the table indicates (e.g. the 4min in the videos you sent me, at a target flow of 61C and d2=60min). Perhaps like MikeH's boiler, yours is not using exactly the values in this table - but your values seem to show the opposite tendency to his.

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    Replies
    1. This is distinctly weird. On my system, everything tends to work a little bit better at higher temps. Hence I have my min of 45 and curve 1.5. I'm not sure my desired temps would be maintained at 1.2 and I know that the system would be hopelessly unresponsive to changing heating demands. At 1.5 my system is still incapable of heating up effectively in the morning. I deal with this by setting a special program for first thing. The program calls for a temp 2-3 C higher than actual target and this gives a first run at a high target temp. Then I have an off program for ?40 mins to let it all cool down to normal operating levels for the real day-time program at actual desired room temp.

      Of course, the 1st burn is less efficient but I thought it better than starting the heating 2 hours earlier at the coldest time of the day.

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  12. I've been watching this blog and the comments with some interest, since I'm a heating engineer with some exposure to Vaillant 400 series with problems. :=)

    There's a lot of excellent detail here about the behaviour of the boiler controller, in particular the 'micro-firing problem'. However, I'm not convinced (yet) that this is actually a single issue. From other experiences with this beast, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's a more fundamental control issue, to do with the way the boiler deals with Flow and Return Temperatures, rates-of-change and the burner modulation that results in various scenarios. Specifically, at least the 428 often seems to set the boiler modulation too high immediately after ignition and then blunders on regardless of whether the Return temperature is rising. It then 'hits the wall' with excessive delta-T and crashes with S53. The 'solution' to this is to ensure that the flow through the boiler is 'sufficient' to hold down the Flow temperature. Problem with that is that with many real-world set-ups, it's very hard to get enough water through the thing to achieve this! IMHO, in practice it should not be necessary! It should be easy for the boiler to adapt to this by monitoring Return temperature and modulating-down as soon as the delta-T passed (say) 18 degrees, then stay at that level until the Return temperature catches up. I've yet to receive any technical explanation for the high burner output levels that are maintained even when S53 becomes inevitable. Just seems silly and asking for trouble!

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    1. I'm also convinced that this is not a single issue. In my system, micro firing does not happen by setting a long d2 and so ensuring that I have "normal firing". d2 seems to me to be a boiler control parameter which applies while heat is being called for. However, we see that sometimes the VRC430 will stop calling for heat when room temperature is not reached and then try again independently of the boiler's ideas. If that is too early, then the restart fails . I found by experiment that this seems to mostly work beneficially and saves long waits after known problem periods - morning heat up and hot water prep. It looks like blog owner's vrc430 may be getting this wrong and creatiung the microfiring.

      I had s.53 before I fitted my Honeywell DU145 ABV and tuned it to get at least the required minimum flow of 10.6 litres/min.

      So we can have "microfiring-like" behaviour by not having enough flow, not tuning d2, being unlucky with the VRC430?

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  13. croydoncorgi, thanks very much for your input.

    Your too-high-modulation upon ignition description is, I think, exactly what many of us feel is the problem. If only the boiler would start off at a suitably low modulation, the heat going into the water would not exceed that which can be absorbed at the achievable flow rate. I agree that microfiring may be just one symptom of a deeper modulation control problem.

    There is debate at the moment as to whether the boilers always start at their maximum output level, or whether the output on ignition is altered at all by de-rating the boiler with the d.0 setting. It may be that different models (or ages of models) within the 400 range differ in this respect. However, the universal impression seems to be that the boilers certainly do not start as low as they could, or anywhere near as low as the minimum advertised output level.

    However, crashing with S.53 is not what I observe. As you will see from the many graphs that I have posted that include the boiler state, my 438 never goes into S.53. When microfiring - which is due to exactly this problem of excessive output at ignition - the boiler stops and goes into S.7. But that's not to say that other people's boilers (including 428s) do not enter S.53.

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  14. You might want to have a read of this thread on DIYnot

    http://www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/vaillant-ecotec-plus-cycling-on-hw-only-demand.318002/

    I have re-tested my boiler and using d.33 as a reference can confirm that d.0 does not alter the initial output. I can also confirm that my system does not alter it's output after xx seconds like many do either!

    I believe on my previous tests when changing d.0, the difference I heard was due to the boiler instantly modulating to the kW it needed. When d.0 was set to 18, it could modulate higher so was therefore louder and then modulated down after approx 20 seconds as it needed. When I set d.0 lower, obviously it could only go up to what I set it at so was quieter giving the impression that d.0 made a difference to the xx seconds kW.

    If it helps, the numbers listed on my system PCB are:

    0020028402
    0494 0340 B
    (On a sticker)

    Then screen printed onto the PCB is:

    TM-AC1 V132_C1 0020028453 TL-AC PM-03

    It would be interesting to know what others have got, especially those that have the high initial output!? It's only two screws and a few clips to check! :)

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